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Complaints begin to mount over paperless ticketing for the Miley Cyrus tour
Barely a day into the announcement of Miley Cyrus's latest tour, message boards throughout the Internet are buzzing with complaints about the paperless ticketing aspect of it, as fans and industry observers lament over the hassles the process might cause.
The reasoning behind the decision to go paperless seems obvious, the organizers of the tour are trying to avoid the problems and criticisms from Cyrus's Hannah Montana tour two years ago. As tickets for that tour sold out quickly, parents of Cyrus's young fans grew angry at seeing brokers and others trying to scalp tickets for sky high amounts. So for this tour, the singer's handlers decided to try something new and try to better control the flow of tickets.
But, what they may have actually accomplished is make the process of buying tickets and attending the show more difficult for many of Cyrus's young fans.
"I'm frankly very surprised that Miley Cyrus has elected to leverage paperless exclusively," Sean Pate, spokesperson for StubHub, told TicketNews. The company is looking into "different options to continue to support a marketplace" for the tour.
"Her fan base does not possess credit cards in the first place, so in order to get to the show a parent will either need to buy and take them to the entrance further congesting admission lines, or accompany them, which when I was 12 or 13 was the last thing I wanted my parents to do," Pate said. "What's worse is this ironically will keep less actual Miley Cyrus fans seeing her shows. Half of the attendees are sure to be parents enduring two hours of a show when they'd rather be someplace else. So if she was really taking her fans interests into consideration she would have made access much easier for them. This really misses that mark."
Ticketing for the tour is being handled by Ticketmaster Entertainment, but company spokesperson Hannah Kampf, and Cyrus's representative Meghan Prophet, did not return requests seeking comment.
Face values for tickets range from $39.50 to 79.50, not including fees, but the tour going paperless has not stopped some people from already trying to capitalize on it eBay by offering to sell the presale ticket codes, and at least one broker offering three premium tickets to a Michigan show for $999. Click on this image to see a larger version.
Economics Professor Marianne Jennings of Arizona State University and an expert on the ticketing industry, believes the move toward paperless ticketing for this tour could end up becoming a public relations problem.
"Yes, they are trying to control the secondary ticket sales, but, as you know, the market does find a way, and I suspect it will find a way [because the organizers] have not thought through the simple issues of free tickets, the need for people to transfer shows, or not go at the last minute, etc.," Jennings said. "Fans may balk at this because there is no opportunity to trade, swap, or resell tickets, and to the extent there is any monkey business in the initial sales, well, fans will really be upset about the availability of better seats after the primary sales have already been out there."
Industry observers believe the tour will likely sell out, due to Cyrus's continued popularity. But, overall demand for the shows will likely go down because of the hoops fans will have to jump through for tickets and access to the venues, but there will still be thousands of fans who will end up being shut out. And, with fewer tickets likely ending up on the secondary market, those shut out fans may end up having to pay even more on the secondary market. Yet, how transferability will be handled on the secondary market is not yet known.
"They must believe that there will be large enough demand to sell out these shows without the help of ticket brokers," said one financial analyst, who requested anonymity because he deals with Ticketmaster. "But, roughly 50 percent of tickets go unsold, so brokers are typically a very important part of the process because they assume a lot of the risk by buying tickets. By going paperless, with the difficulties it presents, this tour runs the risk of not selling out. Anytime you have to put out a video to explain the process to your prospective customers, that's not a good thing."
Pate believes that going paperless could also present some security problems for fans and the venues. "What paperless is going to likely succeed in doing is dramatically reduce the safe and secure methods of ticket resale and promote the old fashioned person-to-person street method that the secondary industry has helped to make obsolete. It's a giant step back in terms of progress and no more satisfactory for fans."
He added, "The bitter irony is all this does is significantly handicap the safe and legitimate avenues for resale like StubHub and put the leverage back to the guy on the street who will now be posting ads on Craigslist with tickets to 'meet you at the arena' with your tickets. That practice opens consumers up to a myriad of safety issues as well as fraud. It of course limits availability to a point where any tickets that are available will be priced exponentially above the face value."
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Jack Johnson has used paperless tickets at his show at the PNC in NJ. Bottom line, you cannot sell anything trade, give away tickets unless you pay Ticket Master MORE MONEY. These guys are animals and need to be stopped. Jack got duped into thinking he is going green. He is only lining theirs and potentially his on the resale of any tickets. What a SCAM!
I am so annoyed with this paperless tickets. Tickets were purchased with my husbands Amex which his name is only on that card. He is now unable to take our two girls because he has a job interview which he really needs to go to as we are struggling. So now because of this my girls are going to miss the show. I am so upset and they will be even more. I will NEVER buy another ticket to the Miley Cyrus shows. I am so mad about this. I spent over 300 on these tickets!!! But who cares right?!!! She still made her money.
I just want to say that due to this paperless ticket tour I can't take my 8yr old daughter because her grandparents were buying and live in another state and a gift card won't work. I believe you are not going to have as many sold this way and TRUE FANS are losing more this. Why not go paperless for the pre-sales and first few weeks or so after the on-sale to public begins and then start paper sales? I don't know but I feel sorry for my daughter and just hope that if Taylor Swift or The Jonas Brothers roll through it won't be paperless.
Sad in TN
What if you buy tickets from someone online, you don't know if they will cheat you and sell them to other people because you won't know who they are until the day of, and the fact they they could easily "resell" to multiple people, make the money, and never show up!
Its unfair!
I am 15 and this is what we are afraid of! D:
I make pretty good money selling tickets. The kicker is that my customers love me. They would rather pay more to buy from me than to log on to ticketmaster and take a chance on crappy seats.
Ticketmaster is the biggest scalper on the Planet. They sell select seats to their second hand brokers and sell the rest to the real fans. Ask yourself this question, Why is it that all the brokers get the first 10 rows to any show? It's called the ticketmaster rule. He who holds the tickets makes the rules. Ticketmaster makes you go through all the hoops to make it seem like they are fair, in reality it is their way so they know what seats to offer you because in that moment you don't care and you will purchase for fear that the next seats will be worse.
My plan is this
$5000 to get a state license to legally sell tickets anywhere in that state even on the arena's property. $500 monthly charge to keep license active + monthe revenue reports showing sales of tickets and taxes collected. Random drug screenings once every quarter, background checks that match those that you need to get on military bases. This way you know the person selling you tickets has a legitimate business, pays taxes, is clean and is not wanted for murder. You carry your license as a necklace to show everyone you are legit.
If you don't have a license and you sell above face you get arrested and get an automatic 10 day jail sentence, even if you sell it on the internet. This will eliminate the second largest group of scalpers, season ticket holders. Do you think the guy who has a warrant is going to take a chance selling tickets with this punishment.
You will never eliminate scalping, but if you want to try, start by not buying any tickets for one year to any events. Save your money, and get ticketmaster out of the way. the old fashioned way of buying direct at the arenas is the best way to go, that way all the locals get their shot at tickets. Now with Ticketmaster you have me in Denver Colorado buying buying up tickets all over the nation and making money.
As for the 4 ticket limit, what a scam, I'm getting up to 40 at some arenas. How do I plan on selling them? There are some secrets that scalpers won't give away. Looking for front row. I have several.
If they want to stop after market sales then they should get the names of the people the credit card holder is buying the tickets for. Then when you go to the show you are the one who is suppose to show your ID to get into the show. Just like airline tickets. Scalpers will not know the names of the ticket holders when they are purchasing all the tickets since they don't know the names of the people who will buy them from them. this will save the credit card holder from escorting you into the show!!!!!! Which is a HUGE PAIN IN THE *&*&*&!!
This is absolutely ridiculos - my daughters grandfather bought her tickets to the show and now he has to go to the show to present his credit card and ID to let her in. I know they are trying not to have after market sales but what about the people who don't want to sell their tickets and are just trying to get their daughter to the show - THE PAPERLESS IDEA IS THE MOST STUPID THING I HAVE EVER HEARD OF!!!!!!!!!!!
You all need to read before you buy. You have to enter the event. this is best idea since ticket have been aorund no more wasitng ink to print or paying for tickets to be mailed. You can transfer or sell the tickets. You also must enter the event. You give your ticket and id were they used to scan them inside the door of the arena not outside. you can not exit once it scanned this stops people from reselling the tickets. They hand you the ticket once you go thru the gates inside the door not before. I used this twice now the lines also move twice as fast as most people have 4 tickets but they only have to scan one ticket.
Bad idea! I couldn't take all my girls because there was a 4 ticket limit per household AND could not have someone else buy them because then THEY would have to go as well for my other daughter to be able to enter since the person who purchased the tickets must be present. This whole thing sucks!
I agree, there needs to be a way to exchange the tickets safely. I don't think though that StubHub is that safe and I wouldn't trust them with paperless tickets.
I've done exchanges where you make the exchange through the baseball team where the seller enters the bar code and a new bar code associated with the credit card is entered. This way I don't have to give Stub Hub 15%, I don't have to give them my credit card # and I don't have to give my credit card info to some broker.
I give credit at least for trying. I disagree that tickets will get more expensive on a wide basis. Maybe some tickets might get very expensive but I think there will be less of a secondary market in the past. A ticketing expert from ASU...that's like saying I got a criminal expert from the state penitentiary
Oops. Looks like the promoters may have over estimated Miley's current appeal.
The Amex and Fanclub sales aren't selling out. I suspect that few of the shows will sell out either. Of course based on the profits made last go around if this was not a paperless ticket tour it is likely brokers would have overbought and flooded the market with unwanted tickets and the prices would have gone below face value.
Brokers are like insurance for concert promoters. Looks like the promoters may have picked the wrong event to make a point.
It a recession. It also summer time people are on vacation not wasting money.
My daughter is a member of the fan club and it was announced that they would have access to pre-sale tickets. Yay, another Miley concert! *rolling my eyes* Yeah, pre-sale fan club gets me section 306! Effing nose-bleed seats! I'd love to sell my crap seats and get something closer but there is no way I am spending another dime for this concert. I will most likely drop my daughter's membership to her fan club as well and if she comes to town again, sorry, we are busy that day, can't go.
What I want to know is this...if it says it is limited to 4 per household, that means I couldn't use my american express to see if I can get better seats on Wednesday or try again on Saturday when they go on sale to the general public.
So, who wants to buy 2 nosebleed seats in section 306? LOL Now I am stuck with terrible seats, out $285.00 and can't attempt to get anything better at a reasonable cost.
Why doesn't she just play football stadiums like U2 or the Rolling Stones if they feel she has such popularity. There's a professional or college football stadium near pretty much any city worth holding a concert in. This would be a far more fan-friendly solution if they truly want to provide more access for fans.
The good thing for brokers is that when tickets are no easier to come by during the public onsale, who are people going to blame for not being able to get tickets?
eBay already has tix on sale and for ridiculous prices! $24,010 for 2 tix! Yes, that is NO typo! $24,010. I am not happy considering I sat online for hours trying to get my 11 year old decent seats, and who ended up with them??? These bleeping, greedy people!
As a ticket broker I am thrilled that this tour will be paperless as it means more profits for ticket brokers. Tickets that I would normally sell for a couple hundred dollars profit, or even less, I will now get over $1000 profit for since I will have to go through the hassle of booking a flight and meeting my customers in person at will call. Many brokers are unwilling to go through this hassle so there will not be many tickets on the secondary market. The whiners that whined 2 years ago about not getting tickets in the public sales are still not going to get tickets. The shows will sell out just as fast and to my delight it will be mostly actual fans buying the tickets. Economics 101: SUPPLY AND DEMAND then kicks in for me! Thank you paperless tickets! You are the best thing to ever happen to serious ticket brokers!
Guess what you not do that as your not allowed to exit once a ticket is scanned. They hand you the ticket once you went thru the turns inside the door not outside. This did not work for AC they did also. many brokers ate the price of tickets.
Thanks for ruining it for young children whose only hope of meeting an idol is to be a few feet from her at a concert! Selling is one thing, but to be charging thousands of dollars? $24,000 is some cases! You make me sick! Especially to sit here and brag.
When Eric Clapton did for MSG last yr, his 1st 4 floor section where Will-Call Only
I was buying the seats at $350 a seat and got f1st 10 row seats no problem.
I was flipping the seats for over $1500 a pop because nobody had them. Even if I had to burn 4th seat to walk in my party, big deal.
That seat should have went for $700 if other brokers where on it.
Get in will be $1200 not $700 because of paperless tickets.
that eventually all the artist will just stop touring and then everyone will be happy.. because lord knows nobody is ever happy with the way event tickets are sold..never have been, never will be.
Or someone needs to build a venue the size of Texas, with nothing but a big long front row, and let everyone in for free.
But parking might be an issue, so arrive early.
The idea of paperless was to try and keep the scalpers from purchasing the tickets and charging a crazy amount for the tickets. Well someone should look into the the Artist herself. Some of the best seats for every show are being sold through a ticket website that deals with VIP tickets and generally charges 5-6 times face value for a ticket and has tickets in the 1st 1-10+ rows blocked off. So maybe that fans need to complain to the Artist about this there are several other artist that sell their tickets through this website.
Ticketmaster, the venues, and the promoters will basically be cornering the secondary market. They will sell tickets through auctions, platinum seats on ticketexchange and maybe even use ebay to make 10 to 20 times face value. They are trying to corner the market. This is what everyone is missing.
Hannah Montana who started this whole secondary market debate will likely be the one who ends it as well. I am anxious to see the complaints after parents who can't get rid of the tickets after their kids bail out.
As far as ticket prices go, if anyone studied the ACDC data, they will realize that it only made more money for the brokers. Brokers can actually afford to travel the country and escort buyers in and still make big money after expenses.
I've went to two AC/DC shows last fall that used the paperless tickets and it actually made lines faster and shorter. All of these complaints are way off base. Kids dont go to shows alone when they are 12-13 years old so the arguments in this article are off base. The StubHub exec is mad because he knows Miley is a cash cow for him and he stands to make 0 from her this tour.
Tour management actually went with this paperless route because everyone was upset they were having to spend $300-$1000 a ticket to make their children happy the first time around. Those tickets were $50-$75 face value. Now you will only pay face value, no mark ups from scalpers and brokers... I would say most of the complaints above are from brokers who took a big hit by her making this move
As for the people that are mad they cant buy tickets do to work, have someone else purchase them for you. Its that simple.
You cant have somebody else buy them for you, which is what I did when I, the only credit card holder in the family of 3, tried to buy a ticket for my wife and 8 year old daughter. Now, I find out I have to go into the show. I don't want to see Miley Cyrus. But because of these numbskull rules. I have to go, my wife cannot. This is really a poorly orchistrated plan. Shame on Ticketmaster for accepting these policies, shame on the Miley Cyrus campus for suggesting it.
Wrong. If you thought ticket prices on the secondary market for Hannah Montana tickets was high last tour that's peanuts compared to what they will be now. Ticket brokers offer a service to us who can't take the day off from work and risk our jobs just so we can have the chance to buy tickets at face value. I am busy and I don't have time to be at my computer at an exact time on a given date, I will happily pay extra to those who are willing to do that. I hope my kids don't want to go this time, I doubt I will be able to afford it now.
Markups where SKY HIGH on the secondary market BECAUSE of paperless ticketing. It limited supply of premium seats, allowing those who had them to demand whatever prices they wanted.
"now you only pay face value"
You dont get the point. The shows are still going to sell out within minutes of the onsale and leave hundreds of thousands of fans in the dark. Now how will they get tickets?? There will be a limited supply in the secondary market if any.
The shows didnt sell out because the brokers bought all the tickets, instead thats how many fans there are. The brokers are still going to buy the tickets and swipe the people in.
I don't get your argument.
Without paperless tickets, the brokers buy the tickets in the first minutes of the sale and sell them to the fans for facevalue + fees they paid to ticketmaster + 100-300% high-demand markup.
With paperless tickets, the brokers will STILL buy up the tickets and sell them to the fans for facevalue + fees they paid to ticketmaster + 100-300% high-demand markup AND they're going to "hire" a couple hundred people to escort in all the fans who were blocked out of the initial sale because the brokers bought up the inventory at every venue across the country?
How can the FANS buy out the show when it's the BROKERS who magically have a majority of the best seats? Thousands of people all over with no interest in the artist or tour buying up tickets as they come on sale and selling them to the brokers to resell again does not mean the FANS have a choice. It just means that someone else gets to stand in between the artist and the fan with their hand out.
The question of where fans will get tickets is the same as before. Paperless tickets makes no difference to the inventory. Maybe it will mean people who actually want to go to the show will get a better chance at the actual sale, instead of having to pay the guy who cut in line in front of them, just to resell it to them.
As long as the tour managers see people willing to spend crazy amounts for front row seats, then they'll keep pushing up the facevalue of all seats until the events almost sell out. If the brokers get left out of the deal, so much the better.
Paperless tickets DOES make a difference to the inventory, as less brokers are willing to waste the time, thus shrinking supply and driving up the prices to secondary market consumers.
Let's just take some numbers that are basically representative to a hot show show.
20,000 tickets are released for sale to the general public in a 30,000 seat arena. 100,000 people want them.
If you follow the data from the last Miley Cyrus tour, about 25% of the inventory released winds up on the secondary market, so about 5,000 seats from the 20,000 wind up on the secondary market... the other 15,000 go to the 5000 out of the 100,000 fans lucky enough to score tickets (average ticket purchase is about 2.75, so I rounded up for simplicity). This leaves 95,000 pissed off fans and 5000 who paid face value.
Now, only about 10% (2000) of those seats for sale are actually bought by "scalpers". The other 3000 are from regular fans who end up not going to the show for various reasons (actually many of these tickets come from the 10,000 tickets given away as promotion or are resold directly by the promoter on the secondary market.. the reality is many of the people not able to go wind up giving their ticket to a friend, etc. Despite popular myths, the average markup is about 30% on a hot show. Some extremely premium seats may go for 300%->500% over face value, but the vast majority of seats sell for far less and "get in" seats usually sell for a very small markup. (go to stubhub and look at Taylor Swift or Green Day and look at the price of the cheap tickets... these are all sold out shows considered extremely hot). Ticket Seller makes $5.00 on ticket doesn't make headlines, so you only read about the 4 2nd row center seats selling for $500 per ticket.
So, at the end of the day... some of those 95,000 pissed off fans mentioned above, will be able to go to the show for a fairly reasonable price.
In the end an additional 1666 people wind up getting tickets thanks to the secondary market and of the original 100,000 6666 wind up fairly happy and 93333 are upset.
Now, let's move into a "paperless" scenario. Shows goes on sale. 20,000 seats released 100,000 people want them. Scalpers will likely be far more selective to cover the extra costs involved, so they may only buy 5% of the inventory (1000 tickets). 6909 people are able to get tickets at face value and then you have 93,091 pissed off fans. Sounds better for a second, but then you consider the 1000 people who wind up not being able to to the show and have NO OPTION for getting rid of the tickets, because ONLY THEY can get into the show... make that 94091 upset fans. (actually more because the 1.75 friends of the 1000 who can't make it... they can't get in.)
The 93091 fans who still want to go to the show go to the secondary market and discover that where they were previously able to get some type of deal.. there is no deal to be had. There is far less competition... no reasonably priced seats available.
Their ONLY option becomes doing a meet and great for 500-1000% face value.
with only 1000 tickets on the market only 363 of them are able to get tickets... but not at reasonable prices.. they cover the travel costs and additional ticket costs for the broker.
5909 people bought tickets at face value and went to the show and 363 bought at incredibly high prices, meaning 6272 fans end up attending the show.
Paper scenarioThose 1500 tickets that would have wound up on the secondary market from people who don't make it to the show...
Real ticket scenario 6,666 fans and their friends attend the show. Average selling price on secondary market = 30% markup on face.
"paperless" scenario 6,272 fans and their friends attend the show. Average selling price on secondary marekt = 300% markup on face. (if you follow the AC/DC data from the paperless part of their tour).
So explain to me again how
Given the numbers in this example, it would seem to be in the best interest of the artist, the promoter, the venue, ticketmaster, and the fans that they open up additional dates in the tour as they sell out. If the entire tour sells out within minutes of the onsale, why not create additional inventory for the additional demand? As you point out, in the initial onsale, more of the primary market inventory goes to fans who actually plan to attend the event. The sweet spot would be to provide just enough supply for the demand with the profit going primarily to the artist, instead of relying on brokers to possibly provide a solution for only 394 additional fans out of 100,000 with none of the additional markup going to the artist.
The only possible benefit I can see with brokers buying up inventory is for the promoters to see just how much fans are willing to pay to attend certain acts while assuming no risk in the primary sale. They would then price the inital onsale to the limit of what the market would bare, leaving little or no profit for the brokers to resell (unless they go for sheer volume).
Either way, the fans get the short end of the stick with either higher primary market ticket prices or having to rely on higher secondary market ticket prices. Given the two scenarios, I think the fans would rather the artist pocket the extra cash, instead of a network of legalized scalpers.
How would you feel being the person who got the worst seat in the house for show #1, only to find out 5 minutes later that show #2 has plenty of good seats available.
Some artists do this with little real thought to their fans, who they claim to be doing it for (Bruce Springsteen).
Others release all their shows at once and create a strong fan club system that actually supports the fans rewarding longevity and keeping tight control over the resale of fan club tickets (Dave Matthews, Phish)
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brokers. No wonder you don't like the idea of the fans buying the tickets on the primary market. If everyone is so convinced that brokers fill the gap of unsold tickets, then why would anyone worry about buying tickets closer to the date of the show? Maybe this means the events won't sell out in 2 minutes, leaving only the $800 tickets on eBay and stubhub for folks to buy.
The bogus auctions are no different from the numerous bogus auctions of non-paperless events. The threat of personal security at the venues is also no different. People will continue to illegally videotape concerts and smuggle their booze and pot in. If parents were really concerned about the safety of their children at mega concerts like this, then they should be going with them, instead of dumping them at the curb with their paper tickets, cash for concert swag, and cell phones in hand.
Instead of getting $300 a ticket for a crappy seat to your kiddie show, now I'll get $800 a ticket. I do thank you however for getting me off my computer and out of the house for a few hours so I can walk those little brats into the venue. Ah fresh air!
all these parents who complained about not being able to get a ticket, will soon complain when there are no tickets available, at least brokers brought something to the after market, and more times then not you can get a good deal from a broker, usually below face in many cases
I imagine in a few years the promoters and artists will solve the ticket broking problem by just jacking the price themselves and using a dynamic ticket method by lowering prices if no one is buying at the current price
Who would have thought that brokers would buy an extra ticket and just escort people into the show or just hire people to escort people into the show.
Up now on Ebay...
$1000 for 3 22nd row tickets in Michigan
$700 for a pair of tickets in Florida
Yeah, good job. Really brought those prices down.
Anonymous #2, you bring up some excellent points. Less supply in the marketplace drives prices up and despite what Miley Cyrus tries to do to thwart the re-selling of her tickets, sellers will find a way. And the sellers who find the way are going to reap the benefits of less competition in the form of HUGE margins. Less supply also means less opportunity for the real fans to attend the event. I just hope no sellers on craigslist have ulterior motives when wishing to "meet the buyer at the event" (if you know what i mean) I can't imagine it would look good for Miley Cyrus to put young fans in harms way...
This is bad news. I work a job and I won't be able to buy tickets for the kids on the day these go on sale. I have always used ebay or stub hub to find seats, closer to the date of the shows. And while it is very true that prices were sky high to Miley last time she toured, I choose not to spend the money and took my kids on vacation instead. I was hoping that this time when she toured I could get tickets for a good price, because she is not as popular as she was 2 years ago. But this time, instead of not attending because I didn't want to shell out the big bucks, this time I won't be attending because I will be blocked from buying tickets two weeks before the show.
I have never heard a worse decision. The ONLY good thing that can come out of this will be an aburpt end to the fantasy of paperless ticketing. It's a poorly thought out joke.
This will be the end of paperless ticketing.
I don't have a problem with people that fairly & legitimately purchase tickets from the box office or ticketmaster and then resell them above face value. I DO however have issue with the fact that some brokers seem to have "ins" with the venue or ticketmaster and get the tickets unfairly through connections and then resell them to the public. That's not right. If I get my ticket fairly, who are you to tell me I can't resell it for what both I, and a potential buyer think it's worth?
In the 46 states where it is totally legally to buy and sell tickets, how is it legal for these promoters to restrict that right? Someone should file a class action suit.